Chapter 388 "Talking with Confucians"

Liu Yan was talking about external threats, and Zhang Hao turned to talk about internal affairs. Liu Yan knew that Zhang Hao wanted to lead him astray, but he didn't care.

Liu Yan first refuted, saying: "In ancient times, when a country was established, agriculture was the foundation and industry and commerce were the end. The products were exchanged, markets were set up, and unified dispatch was carried out to attract scholars and people, gather all kinds of goods, and farmers, merchants and workers each had something to gain. The Book of Changes says: 'Understand the changes and make the people tireless'. If craftsmen do not produce, tools will be scarce. If merchants do not open shops, goods will be cut off. When Your Majesty was in Anxi, you improved farm tools and built water conservancy projects to ensure that Anxi's grain production was sufficient for local use. Now the salt industry is monopolized, the grain transport is reformed, and the price is equalized to balance the transport. These are used to communicate the backlog of goods. If they are abolished, it will be inappropriate."

Liu Yan refuted the argument, and then refuted the point, saying: "According to what Minister Zhang said, the Zhou royal family was quite virtuous and ceremonial in governing the country, but in the end the monarch was killed like a rabbit. In the past, when the Qin and Han dynasties were established, the barbarians from all directions came to surrender. Was it because of their benevolence? Of course not, they were just afraid of the prestige of the Qin and Han dynasties. Only when the prestige is strong will people come to pay tribute. When the prestige is weak, they can only pay tribute to others. Previously, the Tang Dynasty made peace with Tubo and used benevolence to influence Tubo, but in return, Tubo repeatedly invaded the border, killed our people, and seized our territory. When Your Majesty was stationed in Longyou Road, the troops entered Tubo, and Tubo sent envoys to ask for peace. It can be seen that the strong enemies on the border fear power but not virtue."

Zhang Hao said: "Although Zhou disappeared, it survived for 800 years. Qin and Han conquered the four barbarians with military force, but Qin II died. Han was divided into three kingdoms. Emperor Yang of Sui was aggressive and conquered Goguryeo three times, which led to the demise of the Sui Dynasty. This shows that military conquest is only a temporary courage. If you want long-term peace and stability, you must educate with benevolence, righteousness and morality."

Zhang Hao's words have some meaning of restoring Zhou rituals, and this is also the idea of ​​quite a large number of people.

Since the Anshi Rebellion, many people have lost faith in the feudal system and began to miss the beauty of the ancient Zhou Dynasty. In history, Li Heng changed the year to the year and the beginning of January to the beginning of November, which was a compromise with the forces that missed the Zhou Dynasty.

Liu Yan said: "Although Zhou lasted for 800 years, by the Eastern Zhou Dynasty, the princes were divided, wars were frequent, the country was torn apart, and the Zhou emperor had no authority, like a bird in a cage. The Zhou Dynasty was already in name only. The Qin and Sui dynasties fell because their second emperors were incompetent and not only unable to reform the ills, but also made chaos and made the country worse. Han had wise monarchs and capable ministers who governed the country and lasted for 400 years. Now your majesty has inherited the virtue of reviving the country, is determined to make progress, and reforms the bad policies. All the subjects in the world are looking forward to it. At this time, all the wise men should unite and work together to make the Tang Dynasty last for thousands of years, instead of reminiscing about the ancient times and cherishing the memory of the past divided Zhou Dynasty."

Although Zhang Hao missed the Zhou Dynasty, he had the idea of ​​great unification. Therefore, after hearing what Liu Yan said, he was speechless for the time being.

Zhang Hao didn't say anything. Pei Mian behind him stood up and said from another perspective: "Since the founding of the Tang Dynasty, there have been constant wars. We fought the Turks, then the Uighurs, then the Tuyuhun, then the Tubo. Wars were fought every year, but the troubles on the borders did not decrease. The emperor was determined to expand the borders, and the military expenditures increased every year. However, not only did it not bring peace to the borders, but it fattened An Lushan and made him rebel. Isn't this counterproductive? I am short-sighted. It is better to treat foreign threats with appeasement and concentrate on domestic affairs, which will benefit the people. As long as the people are rich and live a prosperous life, foreign enemies who are educated by virtue will surely come to us from all directions."

Liu Yan said: "Since the founding of the Tang Dynasty, there was first the Zhenguan Reign of Emperor Taizong, and then the Kaiyuan Prosperity of Emperor Taishang, when all nations came to pay tribute. Looking back to the past and present, which dynasty has such a good governance? And the reason why border troubles have not been completely eliminated and the An-Shi Rebellion has not yet ended is because there are people who can neither wear armor and hold weapons to fight the enemy, nor can they reform the malpractices. They only want to obstruct the implementation of the new system, abolish the salt monopoly, and empty the treasury. Such a useless person who can only cause trouble is in line with the so-called morality? Is he a benevolent and moral person?"

Liu Yan's words were not only a personal attack, but he also used the benevolence, righteousness and morality advocated by Pei Mian and others as a weapon.

Pei Mian got a little anxious after hearing this and said, "Li Linfu and Yang Guozhong were also famous for their financial management, but they caused An Lushan to rebel. You, the Right Prime Minister, deceived His Majesty and implemented the new system of salt monopoly, which also caused rebellions in Jingxiang and other places. It can be seen that the Right Prime Minister and his system are not good!"

When Pei Mian said this, everyone looked at each other, their eyes all fell on Li Heng.

Because Li Heng had said before that if anyone obstructed the new policy again, he would be chopped off like a desk, and Pei Mian's words were obviously bringing up old scores. He not only attacked Liu Yan, but also Li Heng.

Li Heng noticed the looks in everyone's eyes and said, "I have said that you can speak freely today and I will not pursue it. However, if you want others to be convinced by your argument, you must not only have a solid reasoning, but also speak in a way that others can accept. Otherwise, you might as well go to Caishikou and curse in the street."

Pei Mian knew that he was being rude, so he said, "I am being rude, Your Majesty, please punish me."

Li Heng said: "I am just a spectator today."

Pei Mian turned to the Right Prime Minister and said, "I am disrespectful, please forgive me, Right Prime Minister."

Liu Yan said: "My words were also inappropriate, please forgive me, Mr. Pei."

Seeing that the reformists and conservatives were about to give up and make peace, Cui Youfu stepped forward and said, "The right prime minister promoted the salt monopoly and the new system because the country lacked financial resources, but the lack of financial resources was not due to the underdevelopment of industry and commerce. The Tang Dynasty had fertile land for thousands of miles, mountains, forests, rivers and seas with inexhaustible resources, but the treasury was empty. The reason was that industry and commerce were too developed, and the people were unwilling to farm and pursued profits. In addition, the development of industry and commerce led to too many overly exquisite luxury goods. In order to show off their status and pursue luxury, the officials and the big families were corrupt. In order to obtain luxury, the people did evil things. In order to obtain luxury, the border officials rebelled. It was the development of industry and commerce that opened the door to profit for everyone. The salt monopoly and the promotion of the new system will undoubtedly exacerbate this trend."

Liu Yan said: "The implementation of the new two-tax system is to reduce the tax pressure on the landless proletariat. The salt monopoly can allow people in remote areas who cannot afford salt to have salt. In addition, there is a constant price for grain and salt. These are all moves that benefit the country and the people. It is not all for profit, but also for the people."

Cui Youfu said: "The original intention of the right prime minister may be good, but the actual situation is that officials use fraudulent means to buy the people's products at low prices. The government issues random orders, closes the city gates, and strictly controls the market. All items must be purchased, causing prices to soar. Merchants take the opportunity to seek huge profits. Officials not only do not care, but also collude with merchants, deliberately hoard goods, buy low and sell high. The people not only have to pay taxes, but also face so many difficulties that the people are living in misery."

Liu Yan said: "Any new system will always have loopholes in the early stage of implementation. I do not deny that there are corrupt officials now, nor do I deny that the new system and salt monopoly have flaws, but torn clothes should be repaired instead of not worn, and loopholes in the system should be filled instead of completely abandoned. Your Majesty has established a supervisory agency and selected capable officials to fill the loopholes in the system."

Cui Youfu said: "The law can sentence the people, but it cannot make them kind. It can sentence officials to death, but it cannot make them honest. Otherwise, why is Li Linfu proficient in the law, but greedy? The so-called supervisory officials are actually using the law to punish the people and abuse their subordinates with power and violence. Your Majesty's original intention is good, but the officials do not act according to the law at all. Therefore, it is better to abandon the complicated laws and abolish the complicated supervisory agencies, so that the people can live in peace."

Cui Youfu's words, explicitly or implicitly, were referring to the Jinyiwei established by Li Ying.

Liu Yan said: "Sharp tools are used to remove weeds, which is good for crops. Law supervision is harmful to evildoers, but it is good for the people. We cannot abandon tools just because a crop is damaged during weeding, nor can we abandon law supervision just because a few unjust cases are made during supervision. Just like Cui Guangyuan, the cousin of Minister Cui, who confused right and wrong and could not distinguish between black and white, was removed as a weed. Those who pursue empty ideas always want to overthrow everything and establish a perfect system. They fantasize all day long and have no remedies when there are defects."

Cui Youfu was dissatisfied, but had no words to say.

Liu Yan then said, "Now there is rebellion at home and border troubles abroad. I am in a state of panic. I think about the country's expenses day and night. Statistics from all over the country linger in my mind. Thousands of things make me eat and sleep poorly. Today, Your Majesty allows you to speak freely. I am very happy. I think you learned people can enlighten my ignorance. However, your remarks today are either about returning to the past or nagging about trivial matters. Am I not virtuous enough to let you sincerely teach me?" Fang Guan on the side was proud of his talent and was well-read in poetry and books, but Li Yan's imperial examination selection was not based on poetry and books, but on pragmatism. So he stepped forward and said, "If the court selects virtuous people, how could there be no one to shoulder important tasks with the right prime minister? It's just that the imperial examinations today select a lot of people. Even craftsmen and farmers can be entrusted with important tasks. Therefore, no one can help the right prime minister solve problems."

Liu Yan said: "According to what Minister Fang said, who should be considered virtuous and capable?"

Fang Guan said: "Of course it is someone like Confucius."

Liu Yan said: "Confucius preached in Lu and Wei and taught in various places, but the world was not governed by it, and Lu became weaker and weaker. Confucius said: 'A gentleman does not associate with those who are not good to him.' But although he said so, his actions were not. Ji Sun clan acted immorally and expelled Duke Zhao of Lu to seize the power of Lu, but Confucius' disciples became Ji Sun clan's retainers. The Book of Rites says that men and women should not give or receive, but Confucius met with Nan Zi, the wife of the King of Wei, in private through the favorite of Duke Ling of Wei. The etiquette was taught by Confucius, but he violated morality to please the princes."

When Liu Yan said this, Fang Guan's defense had already been broken.

But Liu Yan was not finished yet, and continued: "Don't discard a person because of his words, and don't discard a person because of his words. Although Confucius' words and deeds are inconsistent, they are different according to the time and place. He can be regarded as a sage. When you recall the sages, you are talking about King Wen of Zhou, King Wu of Zhou, or Confucius and Mencius. These are all ranks, and they are not heights that you can easily reach. Talking about unreachable people is like a cripple talking about a distant place he has never been to. It is all empty talk. Minister Fang claims to be talented, but in my opinion, he has spent his whole life studying classics and writing articles. Although he has thousands of words in his pen, he actually has no strategy in his heart. Confucius said, 'You can study with me, but you cannot follow my path. You can follow my path, but you cannot stand with me. You can stand with me, but you cannot have power with me.' I think he was talking about Minister Fang."

Liu Yan didn't like Fang Guan, so he started attacking him with full force.

Fang Guan had not expected Liu Yan's words to be so cruel. He was anxious and angry, and said, "How can the Right Prime Minister make the rash judgment that I have no plan?"

Liu Yan said, "May I ask Minister Fang how we should govern the country?"

Fang Guan said: "The topic of governing a country is too big to be explained in just a few words."

Liu Yan said: "Then a smaller one. You are also against the new system. So what taxation system do you think the Tang Dynasty should use now?"

Fang Guan was stunned and speechless.

At this time, Zhang Hao, who had been silent for a long time, thought of a speech and said, "If there is not enough money, it is not a good idea to compete with the people for profits. If some malpractices are not corrected, no matter how much money is collected into the treasury, it will not be able to meet the needs of the court."

Liu Yan said: "Please enlighten me, Minister Zhang."

Zhang Hao said: "Palaces, carriages, clothes, equipment, funerals, sacrifices, food, music, entertainment, etc., these are all human nature, which cannot be controlled by oneself, so the ancient sages set up systems to prevent them. But now, officials pursue power and wealth and neglect etiquette, so the people follow suit and usurp the system."

Zhang Hao laid out his arguments and began to give examples, saying, "In ancient times, meat and vegetables were not eaten until they were in season, but now the rich search all rivers and hunt and catch them, and only eat the fresh and tender young. In ancient times, a place to shelter from the sun and rain was enough, but now the rich are extremely extravagant. In ancient times, the king handled government affairs seriously and cared for the people, but now the officials and the rich keep slaves and maids, and enjoy the fruits of their labor. They use their strength to pursue their own interests, and shirk their responsibilities when serving the public. The people are poorly clothed, while the officials' slaves accumulate hundreds of gold. In ancient times, neighbors were close to each other and people were distant from each other. No reward was given to those who had not made any contribution, and no support was given to those who were useless. Now the barbarians have made no contribution, but they live in large houses and halls, and are fed and clothed. The people are in danger from day to day, but the barbarians are well fed and drunk. The people work hard, but the barbarians can travel around at leisure. There are countless examples like this."

After giving examples, Zhang Hao concluded: "Luxury in palaces is a moth that eats away trees, finely crafted instruments is a moth that eats away wealth, gorgeous clothes is a moth that eats away fabrics, extravagant spending is a moth that eats away the treasury, and excessive funerals are a moth that eats away the living. The eyes are addicted to the five colors, the ears are immersed in the five sounds, the effort is spent on useless things, and the wealth is all spent on unurgent things. If this continues, no matter how the court seeks profits, there will never be enough money and property."

Liu Yan said: "Since your majesty ascended the throne, you have set an example by being frugal and thrifty, and have distinguished rewards and punishments. You have not been extravagant. Minister Zhang seems to be referring to the time when the emperor was in power."

"Huh?" Zhang Hao was stunned, then felt that it made sense and couldn't continue.

The leader Zhang Hao was speechless, and the others couldn't say anything for the time being.

Seeing this, Liu Yan concluded: "After one year of the new system, the two taxes have brought in about 11.89 million strings of cash, and the salt tax has brought in about 3 million strings of cash. This does not include Hebei. Once Hebei is pacified and the new system and salt tax mature, tax revenue is expected to more than double. Only when the treasury is full can we defend against border troubles and govern the people. If you have other good strategies, I welcome your discussion. However, if you simply reject them without any countermeasures, I am afraid that is not in line with the way of a minister!"

Liu Yan alone refuted the opponents' doubts about border policy, internal governance, the Two Tax System, the salt tax, and even the doubts about the Jinyiwei and the imperial examination system.

The officials were shocked, and Li Heng was also surprised.

According to Li Heng's original idea, today was just the beginning and the discussion would last at least several days, but he didn't expect Liu Yan to be so confrontational.

Of course, the reason why Liu Yan was able to argue was not only because he was knowledgeable and eloquent, but also because other people were restricted by the limitations of feudal society.

Li Ying asked everyone to go down and rest first, and he would give a banquet for everyone tomorrow.

(End of this chapter)